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different, David; they’re that stronger. I’ve known guys who have smashed a window by accident, and the cops have gone after them and they’ve gone to Borstal the next day. I’ve seen the way the police in Scotland have treated homosexuals. Life is hell, but there’s a lot of gentleness as well.
DAVID. You were telling me the other night about when you were in Borstal, about the way in which the warders used to tease you with cigarettes.
PAUL. Yeah, they done that as well. Monday morning, nobody’s got cigarettes, you know, and I got fed up with it. I just grabbed a fag and crumpled it. I crumpled his fag and he took us down the stairs and punched us violently. I’ve found if you face up to these people, they’re fuckers, they’re not worth it. If I put it this way, I believe that people like that go into an institution to fuck up young people, batter them every day, because they had a hard time of it when they were young. I think that’s a good explanation. And it’s the same with these cops. They’ve got a uniform. They think they’ve got the authority, ‘I’ve got a badge, it says 456 I can knock the fuck out of you’.
DAVID. Why do you think they need to do that?
PAUL. Why? Power! They have no power in their own self in civilian clothes, so they have to have it in this uniform. It’s like Jekyll and Hyde, they’re so fucking coward of their wives at home, they put on a uniform, they go out, Hyde the monster – you know. That’s exactly what it is. The fucking horns grow when they walk out the door with that uniform on. It’s the same here as well, and I think they arrest people just to get promotion, because if they bust gay people it’s a big thing. So they become sergeants at a desk and have a cushy number all their life. I think that if the people had a people’s law and a people’s government it would be a better country to live in. In other words: Fuck Edward Heath, fuck Harold Wilson, fuck all politics. Just have a union, a people. Just get them to understand that you are gay and there’s fuck-all you can do about it. Churchill was the worst swine of the lot. That ‘Young Winston’ is a load of bull, fucking rubbish. In 1926 he just shot people in the streets for having a general strike. If I wrote a book, I’d write a book for the working class to understand. I’d write it word by word in my own meaning. There are too many words they don’t want you to understand, so they put a big fucking word there. They’re trying to bend people s minds so they’ll go straight, no more unions, nothing. If you want to go to the Tories, you’ll go there. If you want to go to Labour you’ll go there. But behind the Tories there’s always the Unions. I’d go straight to the Unions for the people. I mean that Vic Feather is half mad, half brainy sort of thing. He doesn’t know what he is and he’s a Union man, and that GPO man as well, Tom Jackson. He said: Go on strike, GPO, go on strike’ but that cunt’s got a fucking Phantom 5 out there waiting for him, with a crest and a chauffeur, and those people have got to suffer on what they’ve fucking saved up
JEFFREY. Have you ever found other guys attractive?
PAUL. Aye, I’ve told you that, there’s bisexual in everybody definitely, but I’m heterosexual and that’s the way I like it, that’s the way I’ve developed. You’ve developed differently you know, and it’ll probably sound funny to people to think of a guy being in bed with another guy. I believe in God, and I believe he made you all homosexual to make a change in the world, because if everyone was the same it would be a horrible place to live. There’s got to be an individuality in sex and work and play, you know.
JEFFREY. You’ve never made any moves though. You’ve never felt you could go to bed with another guy?
PAUL. I tell you Jeff, it’s a complicated thing to be a heterosexual and have feelings for a guy, you know what I mean? I believe man is here to fuck women, not just as fucking you know. I think Womens Lib talks a lot of rubbish at times, that’s being honest with you. ***** says that I was just a prick, that men were just pricks, and I got upset with her because men have got feelings as well, and she doesn’t want you to help her. She wants independence for herself, but she couldn’t even open a window. I knew she couldn’t and I just put my hand up like that, click, and the window was open, and I was showing my superiority. That’s true. Man is stronger than Woman. Man is superior in all things. They’re the breadwinners for the house.
JEFFREY. Maybe that’s forced on them.
PAUL. Oh aye, it’s forced on me. It’ll be forced on me when I’m married. I can’t just lie there and say: ‘Fuck you hen, you get up and go to work. I’ll stay in today’. I think this should be a mediocre thing like. I stay in bed one morning, doing the housekeeping, because I can cook, and then she stays in and I go to work.
ANGUS. What would your attitude to us be if you were still in Scotland?
PAUL. I’d have put you through a window. No, I don’t know what I’d have done. I never really spoke to a homosexual in Scotland, to be friends with.
DAVID. Why do you think your attitude to homosexuals has suddenly changed?
PAUL. Because you’re all nice guys. The first time I found out you were gay I was really surprised, just surprised and you’ve got to make way for people.
JEFFREY. Do you feel out of place in a room full of gay people, like the night you came round for dinner?
PAUL. Do I fuck! I like you all. Why do you think I come in sometimes, I think you were pleased at my coming and sitting and talking. I was stoned as well. I enjoyed myself. I’d never had a quiet evening like that. Parties in Scotland, it’s a fucking battle in the house. It doesn’t seem to happen down here. They don’t have drugs at parties in Scotland.
JEFFREY. What would you do if you went back to Scotland and met some of your queer bashing friends?
PAUL. Well to tell you the truth Jeff, when I’ve been home I’ve had nothing to do with them, because I was near enough a sadist. I liked to beat people up. But the atmosphere down here has changed me. Scottish people are bad tempered for a start, we’re pushed out, we don’t count and there’s no work in Scotland. There are street gangs because there’s nothing else to do, there are no clubs.
DAVID. Do you think the Scottish people are going to do something about their conditions, like they’ve done in Northern Ireland, or do they just accept it?
PAUL. Well it’s going to happen sooner or later, because we’re being exploited. There’s going to be a civil war, because Scotland’s deprived of every means of work. What’s a working man got? He’s got 5 hours of free time perhaps. Up at 6 in the morning, start work at 8 o’ clock, and you get the same fucking bus every night, and the same people are on that bus. At the end of the day I want to kick the fuck out of something kick the bus or rip the seats.
MICKY. What would have happened to a boy at your school who was gay?
PAUL. I’d have thrown him over the wall, leave him for the dogs. That’s honest to God. I think if I was gay I’d learn to defend myself for a start. When I was about 15 I went to live in **** there was a gang there, feuds. I decided to be like the Jones’ you know … I was at this place **** and I got the bus home. There was this guy who was gay, and he was saying, ‘Do you want a sweet?’ Come with me and have a good time sort of thing. I had this pen-knife in my pocket, and if you’ve got fear in you, your hands sweat and holds on to it.
DAVID. Why did he frighten you so much?
PAUL. Because the guy persevered. He wouldn’t fuck off. When I got off the bus he followed me in the dark, and he stood with his penis at me. Well I was old enough to understand, so I pulled my knife at him. He was about 24, 25. Young, well dressed, good looking guy. I just pulled the knife out and fucking used it on him. I ran away. I was terrified. I knew I’d hurt that guy, but I think he would have harmed me a lot … fucked my life up, I might have been frightened to have sex with a woman.
DAVID. You don’t think you could have been happy as a gay person?
PAUL. I couldn’t have faced it – in Scotland especially. There’s a gay scene in Scotland but it’s a very CIA sort of thing. If a cop finds out you re gay and you’ve got a gay community like a pub, he’ll fucking wreck it, and you too. A lot of Scottish people would accept it, but I’m talking about my side, the working class. My brother would do me in, but my other 2 brothers, if they knew I was talking to you they’d tell me to fuck on do it. I think my old man is like me. He accepts things, he never says to me ‘fucking queers’. I get on fucking horrible with my father though. I’m his number one son sort of thing. He’s afraid of me you know. I used to see him beating up my mother and spending the money. We’d be starving. She’d have to get credit in the shops to live, and work for a pittance to pay it off.
JEFFREY. Is it only because we act fairly straight that you can accept us? Would you feel embarrassed with someone who was obviously gay, feminine looking or wearing a GLF badge?
PAUL. I wouldn’t be embarrassed. I’d get used ot it. I’d make myself get used to it.
JEFFREY. You don’t ever think you’ll sleep with a guy and have sex?
PAUL. No, but I suppose I’ve got feelings for guys as well as women. Everyone has times when they’re bisexual. They must have, because I think you can get bored with a woman. I’m only generalising it.
JEFFREY. What would happen if you got married and had kids. What would you say to them about gay people and sex?
PAUL. I’d wait until they were old enough and I’d tell them. I’ve got a friend in London and his kid’s only 2 and he made him stand there and watch his mother having the baby and explained it to him, which I think is fucking amazing, and she was breast-feeding in front of me. I think that’s nice, freedom of the body.
DAVID. What would you do if you had three sons, and one of them was 16 and came to you and said he was gay?
PAUL. I’d say ‘You think about it and tell me again, and if you are gay that’s the way it is’. I think I would accept it because I wouldn’t talk to you if I couldn’t accept one of my sons being gay. When I was younger I had a relation. It was my uncle’s father and he was bi-sexual. He had a beautiful wife, lovely daughters and good looking sons, and maybe he was not bi-sexual when he got married. Young people turn older bi-sexuals on, you know, but as far as he got was opening my zip and pulling my penis. I couldn’t put myself to the point of going to bed with him. I was younger then, thirteen.
MICKY. You enjoyed it as far as it went?
PAUL. As far as it went.
DAVID. Is there something you’d particularly like to say to end the interview?
PAUL. That if you were liberated and the people were liberated from society as it is now, it would be a better world.